Thanks to all

First of all thankyou Josh and all your crew for putting on a great event.

Easily one of the best events I have been too so far. The size of the enagements was massive with easily on a few occasions 20 people opening up on a similiar amount of guys at the same time. One of the high points on the first day was with the GMC truck and the armoured car pushing at the bottom of the road which joined the field. Even though the allies were pushed back I went through every single BAR mag trying to supress german reinforcements and then the inevitable counter attack. Hitting many of the "krauts" before they reached there dugouts.

Was great to see and catch up with so many people. Except Marsh who finally got her revenge on me. Beating me to death with an MP40 as I was screaming for a medic. (i will get you back!)

The site was amazing, I just hope everyone cleared up after themselves and we are welcomed back!

High Points:
Massive engagements.
Veichles (on both sides) were amazing to see in the field.
Level of effort that everyone had made on Kit was excellent.
Squad play and the command structure

Low Points:
On multiple times (especially on the last day) there seemed to be alot of lone wolfing going around on the german side.

Obviously a new site and Josh had stated that he wasn't going to be in the field a great deal, but both days didnt kick off quickly. And as a result on Sunday we didnt even manage to get 3 hours out on the field. The germans were briefed before moving out (why not brief them when they were there?) and the yanks and brits were briefed after our deployment. We could of easily been briefed when the germans started to move out and walked into our starting postion, probably getting another 30 minutes of game time. I did actually suggest this from an allied prespective. But a few people had decided to wonder back off to tents and the allied commander didnt want to brief without everyone being threre. Please take this as constructive critism though, as it in no way spoiled my weekend. Just would of been nicer to get some more time in the field

Stu

The germans were briefed before moving out (why not brief them when they were there?) and the yanks and brits were briefed after our deployment. We could of easily been briefed when the germans started to move out and walked into our starting postion, probably getting another 30 minutes of game time.

I appreciate what you mean, but just to address this, it was purely due to the Germans being sent to three separate locations, rather than sending them to the Axis HQ on the far side of the site, then briefing them and having them walk back to their positions from there, which would have taken just as long!

There's always a problem with trying to get games to start on time, if you say 'briefing at 9am', a lot of people think that means 'at 9:30 i'll start putting my webbing on', but as it's a legal requirement for people to hear the safety brief, so you have to wait until everyone's there, or you have to repeat a 15 minute brief ten times as people turn up in small groups, which isn't ideal, either.

Any late sunday starts are generally down to hangovers, and there's very little we can do about that, as the social side is at least as important as the shooting side for most people, but I appreciate it can be frustrating, especially in winter when gaming time is severely limited by daylight hours.

The germans were briefed before moving out (why not brief them when they were there?) and the yanks and brits were briefed after our deployment. We could of easily been briefed when the germans started to move out and walked into our starting postion, probably getting another 30 minutes of game time.

I appreciate what you mean, but just to address this, it was purely due to the Germans being sent to three separate locations, rather than sending them to the Axis HQ on the far side of the site, then briefing them and having them walk back to their positions from there, which would have taken just as long!

There's always a problem with trying to get games to start on time, if you say 'briefing at 9am', a lot of people think that means 'at 9:30 i'll start putting my webbing on', but as it's a legal requirement for people to hear the safety brief, so you have to wait until everyone's there, or you have to repeat a 15 minute brief ten times as people turn up in small groups, which isn't ideal, either.

Any late sunday starts are generally down to hangovers, and there's very little we can do about that, as the social side is at least as important as the shooting side for most people, but I appreciate it can be frustrating, especially in winter when gaming time is severely limited by daylight hours.

Like I said it didn't impact on the weekend just wish we could have spent a little more time in the field. I also didn't realise about the germans on the second day so thanks for pointing that out. This was the first event i wasn't hungover at (as i drove home which was only 10 minutes away) but I have always managed to get all my kit sorted for the morning brief on time. Just my minor frustation from the weekend.

The germans were briefed before moving out (why not brief them when they were there?) and the yanks and brits were briefed after our deployment. We could of easily been briefed when the germans started to move out and walked into our starting postion, probably getting another 30 minutes of game time.

I appreciate what you mean, but just to address this, it was purely due to the Germans being sent to three separate locations, rather than sending them to the Axis HQ on the far side of the site, then briefing them and having them walk back to their positions from there, which would have taken just as long!

There's always a problem with trying to get games to start on time, if you say 'briefing at 9am', a lot of people think that means 'at 9:30 i'll start putting my webbing on', but as it's a legal requirement for people to hear the safety brief, so you have to wait until everyone's there, or you have to repeat a 15 minute brief ten times as people turn up in small groups, which isn't ideal, either.

Any late sunday starts are generally down to hangovers, and there's very little we can do about that, as the social side is at least as important as the shooting side for most people, but I appreciate it can be frustrating, especially in winter when gaming time is severely limited by daylight hours.

Like I said it didn't impact on the weekend just wish we could have spent a little more time in the field. I also didn't realise about the germans on the second day so thanks for pointing that out. This was the first event i wasn't hungover at (as i drove home which was only 10 minutes away) but I have always managed to get all my kit sorted for the morning brief on time. Just my minor frustation from the weekend.

Believe me, it's ours too! Glad it didn't spoil your weekend though!

We've discussed the 'game time' issue a lot among the orgs team over the weekend.

The usual problems are

1. long but neccesary safety brief and rule, followed by needing to 'battle brief' the actual side privately. The more 'immerisive' the event is the more time this is going to take.

2. Few daylight hours. Not only does this mean we couldnt realistically play past 4pm much on the sat it also means its harder to get people to get up on a sat or sun morning if its still dark outside. If you're in a tent you tend to wake up with the sun. heavy drinking at socials compounds this.

3. the 'it doesnt apply to me' factor. I spent about an *hour* walking around the line of cars/tents telling every one when the safety bried was due to start, when josh was waiting to start it with about 50 per cent of people there i was still going up to groups of people sorting their kit out rather than listening to the brief and *then* sorting their kit out. Even as josh started some people were still fucking about as their kit was more important than listneing to the brief.

As i said several times on the weekend. There is no point repeating the brief three or four times, you need everyone together and the people who do dawdle about make everyone else lose game time.

A further problem was the vast size of the forces, the booking arrangements dont always work out in real life so you need to franctically re-org sections to make them equal sized. Add in that even at this late point some people were still arriving.

So how to tackle it.

We had a few ideas.

1. sign in on friday night, you at sign in also sign that you have read the game rules. This means at the brief we just have to cover the basics.
2. Asking people to ease off partying too hard, it wasnt that bad this weekend tbh, but at some events people are drinking til 5am the night before and in no state to play on the morning after.
3. Putting in a rule that if you're not there at the briefing and ready to deploy by 'x oclock' then you wait an hour and get inserted by truck an hour later with any other stragglers... it's not ideal but if people cant be punctual it means that 35 guys are not waiting 30 minutes for 2 people messing about with their webbing or still having breakfast

In ten years of running these events i've seen less than a handful ever start on time, finish on time or not go completley off page with regards o the battle plan.

Believe it or not this was one of the events that more or less kept to the programme

Had an excellent day on Saturday. Loved the continuous and fluid gameplay throughout the day - very hard to work out what was going on where and plenty of confusion and shifting plans and thinking on the fly (far from a criticism, I love it!) plus a brand new site to get to grips with (and really easy to get to as well ).

Brilliant fun driving troops around in the GAZ (sheesh, who needs brakes?) and trying to comply with HQ directives with constantly changing situation in the battle. Glad we eventually got some heavier weaponry and got a panzerfaust team out there, but a shame supplies of mortar shells didn't get through the lines when they would have been most useful!

Just one big criticism and two minor whinges. Biggy: it is really bad form and inconsiderate to fellow players to ignore briefing calls and continue rummaging through cars and finding other things more important to do. It is your duty (consider it part of the 'experience') to be ready for action when the orders tell you to be. It really isn't hard to be timely and organised!
Whinge 1: Astonishing to find a gaggle of troops having a picnic around a CP when their comrades are being slaughtered in the field and positions are being over-run. Ask HQ for permission to break off first, you aren't going to die of hunger!
Whinge 2: If you are told to disengage and withdraw then do so in haste - exchanging fire with a fellow airsofter just because you can see them and you want to kill them might be to the detriment of many other players. HQ look at the big picture and not individual skirmishes - follow orders even though it may seem daft (and it way well turn out to be daft, but that's war for you )

I had intended to stop on Sunday but got up at 6am with frost on the inside the tent and after hurriedly dressing realised I'd be standing around in the freezing cold for the next four and a half hours or more waiting for others to get a wriggle on. That frosty dawn would have been awesome to fight in! As it was I helped Keith get packed up and then buggered off myself, was at home up north and in the bath by 9am.

Anyhoo, excellent event, cheers to Josh and crew, and the players who got into the WW2 battle experience mindset.

We had a perfectly good picnic interrupted by two Germans who were unaware they couldn't storm a CP with only two people!!

Sorry about that, again it's people not listening to the brief, having more important things to do when the rules are explained or just not wanting to follow them

Hopefully in future the idea of the 'standing orders' that you need a set number of men to do tasks will be a bit more familiar (its only the third event we've triedit) and the ammeded 'sunday rule' that a section leader has to make the change over will help as people will realise there is no point running off on their own if they need their NCO to approve the swap over.

I appreciate the 'standing orders' annoy the hell out of one or two people on both sides who couldnt adjust from a regualr skirmish outlook/attitude but the general response we've had since we first put them into games (cold war actually....) is that most players love it.

Rather than having little shootouts between ones and twos over a water but you end up with *battles* with 20-30 a side over a stategic location etc.

I know it's not everyones thing but I know it works better from an orgs point of view.

as stated earlier very enjoyable and well run event.

From reading all the posts and comments everything seems very positive. From a newbie who was attending only his second WW2 event, i would like to thank everyone for making me feel welcome, but also to raise a point with regard to the rules.

Gunman made an excellant suggestion with regard to the field note book, something i will have with me next time. My main concern, and this was a concern i had with me, not others, was my adherence to the rules. having played paintball for the best part of 10 years, then moving to airsoft a few months ago and doing general modern airsoft, it is a very big stepup to WW2 events.

while the rules are not rocket science, it is very difficult to change habits obtained over years of playing simular (yet very different) events, and only time and experience will allow new players to change their habits and mind sets. so i can image how frustrating it must be for "experienced" players to have "newbies" around. So to the point, would it be possible to have a "newbie squad/zug" in a game, with an experienced (and patient) commander overseeing them, this will ensure he/she can then guide and teach them first hand, rather than the new guys and gals trying to follow the others and/or wandering off on their own. This is only a thought and has probably been considered before, but it would give new players the opportunity to learn and not impact negatively on the experienced players game, after all WW2 is more than just dressing up and definately more than just airsoft, being a hobby, rather than a passtime.
I have in no way touched upon the complexities of the doing the above, just athought thrown out there.

p.s i would like to point out the "gloating" allied players standing over us in the pictures very kindly asked permission before displaying their victory, very gentlemanly and honourable of them.

Its an idea, certainly

However i can see it being a real nightmare for the guy in charge (who equally cant play with his mates but has to look after new players). Equally you dont have that experience to call upon.

You have to remember that the zug leaders and the side commanders are players too. Evo working on the radio doesnt get paid for sitting in a jeep moving zugs about by map and radio, thats our game though. We play a sort of 'wargame' with real people on the map against Nige or Josh

Usually, in the real world, you'd only have a section of new recruits with a cadre of one or two veterans in dire situations. It's usually better to filter new guys into existing formations... they can lead by example. I see this translating well into airsoft.

Leading a section of new guys who all had 'open day' mindsets on would be like hearding cats but putting the new players into a section of players who know what is going on means the new guys just have to follow, watch and learn.

Just my opinon, not the official Gunman line btw!

Have to say i loved the rule of needing 2 or more to advance made things really good , we had to withdraw from a scrap a couple of times due to it , including trying to dislodge the Germans on the ridge early on , we tried to take it with just our squad in 2 sections trying to attack both flanks but a few good kills by the defending Germans stopped our advance and we had to withdraw regroup get a squad of brits and take it with numbers

we were only there for the Saturday but we never heard any moans whats so ever , and i know every one in our squad had a cracking day

would firmer leadership at nco/squad leader level help with all this? more often than not, ordes are delivered in a 'if you wouldnt mind' or in a very vague way. for example, instead of being told to 'push forward on that ridge' the order could be clearer 'form up in extended line, 10 meters apart and push up onto that ridge, clear it of enemy and secure it and wait for further orders'. I for one would respond well to such control in the field and surely if people accepted this approach, it woud be easier to control a game from an organisational point of view? When there are gray areas with orders, this leaves the individual to interperate what was said or have to decide what to do (or frees them to take liberties). it's then you get people eating lunch, lonewolfing or swapping out flags with only 2 men. Tighter control is the answer for me , with seasoned ww2 airsofters who 'get' the scene oh and airsofters willing to take orders and follow them! Thing is, we all think we know how to do it best, just like any other oranised activity. just ask the england manager

would firmer leadership at nco/squad leader level help with all this? more often than not, ordes are delivered in a 'if you wouldnt mind' or in a very vague way. for example, instead of being told to 'push forward on that ridge' the order could be clearer 'form up in extended line, 10 meters apart and push up onto that ridge, clear it of enemy and secure it and wait for further orders'. I for one would respond well to such control in the field and surely if people accepted this approach, it woud be easier to control a game from an organisational point of view? When there are gray areas with orders, this leaves the individual to interperate what was said or have to decide what to do (or frees them to take liberties). it's then you get people eating lunch, lonewolfing or swapping out flags with only 2 men. Tighter control is the answer for me , with seasoned ww2 airsofters who 'get' the scene oh and airsofters willing to take orders and follow them! Thing is, we all think we know how to do it best, just like any other oranised activity. just ask the england manager

It's a nice thought, but at the end of the day, it's a game to most people. If you want to get shouted at by someone in big boots, you can either join the TA, or there are a whole range of specialist nightclubs for that sort of thing.

Really, all we can do is ask nicely, and hope people get 'into' the spirit of it and at least try to go along with the orders/chain of command.

If people aren't going to follow polite orders, given in a friendly manner, all they'll do when you shout at them is to get the hump and leave, or punch you.

would firmer leadership at nco/squad leader level help with all this? more often than not, ordes are delivered in a 'if you wouldnt mind' or in a very vague way. for example, instead of being told to 'push forward on that ridge' the order could be clearer 'form up in extended line, 10 meters apart and push up onto that ridge, clear it of enemy and secure it and wait for further orders'. I for one would respond well to such control in the field and surely if people accepted this approach, it woud be easier to control a game from an organisational point of view? When there are gray areas with orders, this leaves the individual to interperate what was said or have to decide what to do (or frees them to take liberties). it's then you get people eating lunch, lonewolfing or swapping out flags with only 2 men. Tighter control is the answer for me , with seasoned ww2 airsofters who 'get' the scene oh and airsofters willing to take orders and follow them! Thing is, we all think we know how to do it best, just like any other oranised activity. just ask the england manager

It's a nice thought, but at the end of the day, it's a game to most people. If you want to get shouted at by someone in big boots, you can either join the TA, or there are a whole range of specialist nightclubs for that sort of thing.

Really, all we can do is ask nicely, and hope people get 'into' the spirit of it and at least try to go along with the orders/chain of command.

If people aren't going to follow polite orders,given in a friendly manner, all they'll do when you shout at them is to get the hump and leave, or punch you.

didnt mean they had to act like a csm or anything, just clearer in description. being asked to do a,b and c is easier to follow then being asked to get to c! often i've been part of a squad where the order will be go up that hill and that's the extent of it. or after completing a task, the question goes up 'what now?' but the squad leader has wandered off or is other wise engaged and you're left to your own devises! Just more comprehensive direction may help. if there's doubt then people will inevitably do what they like.

Big thanks as always to Josh and his able assistants for putting this event together and ensuring that it ran as well as it did. An interesting site, with a good mixture of cover and open ground, both sides really had to work hard for their gains...as it should be! Really noticed a change in how I approached the event, ever since Wladek's game in September I've noticed I now place a higher premium on staying alive and preserving my life!

Well played all, see you all next year!

it was mostly our own silly fault for sitting around chatting and having lunch rather than paying attention!

It is traditional that I get overrun while eating my sandwiches, happened at 'Bastogne' a couple of weeks ago and nearly happened on Saturday. It should be possible to eat in the line, but you need to designate sentries and eat in shifts (or ask HQ to pull out altogether as Chommers suggests).

wrt a couple of the other comments:

i) I think you need to mix the new guys in with people who have done it before so they can watch and learn. The vast majority of people want to fit in and do it right, and it is much easier to to that in the company of experienced people than be stuck in a separate 'raw' group.

ii) I am sure clearer orders would help, however the overall commanders and section leaders have a lot to think about and will sometimes get things wrong or be vague. No harm in asking questions and making suggestions, like 'where is the rally point'. I would be the first to admit that my leadership style tends more towards Sergeant Wilson than Panzer Meyer, and in the heat of the moment you forget even basic stuff. I even said 'over and out' on the radio. Oh the shame

Cheers
Martin

Points we note;
-We don't like travelling in huge squads as we get discovered and in effect have less fun.
-Often pointless routes that avoid action
-Other squad members fire way to early and end up with us KIA by no fault of our own.
-At times we are being forced to go out as a sniper and a spotter, and still end up being persecuted as they think we are just a 2 man squad.
-By keeping us little guerilla groups in the day, the opposition will work more realistically by setting up checkpoints and having someone on watch when eating.

To address your points...

- In WW2, the VAST majority of movement was done in much larger numbers than is done today. The squad was the most basic and intrinsic method of movement and of fighting.
- "Pointless" routes are chosen for that very reason! If you want to approach an enemy unseen, in strength, you need to conceal yourselves! This is done at the expense of "trigger time".
- Some people have less discipline or less "bottle", it's a fact of war and leads to greener troops opening fire before the order is given.
- Sniper operations were rather rare in WW2 and, the sniper and spotter idea is a relatively new one. In WW2, PROPER snipers were solitary predators. There's not much place for them in WW2 games, as we are dealing at tactical, rather than strategic level.
- There were no "guerilla" tactics used in the Gothic line defence or assault/defence. It was a bloody, prolonged battle of attrition. Small groups of wannabe "elite snipas" shouldn't make the enemy put out sentries and be switched on, they shoud be doing that anyway as part of their standing orders.

Not having a go at you specifically but, there are a LOT of WW2 players who totally fail to grasp the mindset and are more concerned with racking up kills than they are with actually participating in the spirit of the event.

Wanting to play your role is to be commended but, you can't do that at the expense of the organiser's hard work, nor other player's enjoyment. I'd suggest attending some smaller, more tightly squad based WW2 events as well as the bigger games, so you can really see the benefits of working as a squad, which will reap it's own rewards at bigger games. Kind of a self fulfilling prophecy, if you know what I mean.

This was my first WWII Airsoft Game and I must say it was the best game I've ever played, great fun, no cheaters at all as far as I'm aware and no one commented and me or my friends face masks, which again I'm sorry we couldn't leave at home, but once I'm 18, I'll not be wearing it, thank you to you all for a brilliant time.

instead of trying to wipe peoples play style completely out of the game i feel is the wrong way to do it, i personally don't want to go back to standard airsoft as neither would most people, but neither do i want to play 100% to the role, and as previously said if you want to be commanded you join the TA.

What we're trying to do is remove the pretty standard 'open day' mentality, and replace it with a structured story that everyone can get behind and enjoy. Once people depart from the plan, and start going their own way, doing their own thing, it detracts from everyone's experience.

and as previously said if you want to be commanded you join the TA.

That's not what I said, whatsoever.

Thanks to Josh and the other organisers/commanders particularly Nigel, Ramsay and Martin.

I had a good time and it was a good site and nice and close to me which meant I didn't have to freeze at night.

From my perspective it was a good event but I have been to better, At times it did seem closer to what I imagine airsoft would be than WW2 airsoft. On Saturday as a semi-autonomous divisional engineers section we could operate when attached to HQ but once detached from there we weren't really attached anywhere else and with no radio were left to sit around and eventually improvise a suicide bomb at CP6 while asking anyone who passed through to obtain instructions for us which seemed to consist of stay where you are. Perhaps the complete lack of any engineering tasks other than to defuse the mines in the morning (not that anyone seemed overly concerned that they were there) on the Saturday didn't help. We did offer to repair the armoured car from the damage it had taken but that offer was spurned only for it to be destroyed on its next joy ride past the enemy. Eventually we attached ourselves to Baker Company and the day picked up under Ramsay's direct control.

On Sunday aside from the first part of the morning and the blowing up of the AT guns I should have stayed in bed. The day for me seemed to consist of a German CP in the apparently out of bounds area; bad map reading; a big thing being made about mines not having been cleared in a different area to that which we were told we were playing in; a hissy fit because we outflanked the German attack and pushed them back to their CP; returning to our original positions at Lima which everyone knew were never going to be attacked; then being told to go to CP3 which had already been cleared away and finally bored of hearing two battles going on in separate directions and realising that it was nearly endex we made our way to the battle by CP6 just in time for the whistle to be blown.

Positive
Some good new players who clearly have the right attitude
Great site
Good props

Negative
Too many lone wolves whether singular or groups who don't seem to want to be part of a big picture.
Too much sitting and chatting at CPs (I agree with Martin R unless scheduled into the game I think meal breaks should be strictly controlled and taken "in character") or wandering around in groups out for a Sunday stroll.
Much clearer rules and roles for vehicles
Bad C3I I am more than happy to sit around doing nothing all day and don''t mind if I don't fire my gun but only if that is what is required and not because I have been forgotten and not just so everyone else can have a great game somewhere else.

I agree with Pvt Johnny/Sgt Heide I think everyone should be trying to fit into the mind set that you are an ordinary WW2 soldier and acting as part of a squad not Rambo and his mates. We don't do this all the time so reminders of how to fan out and approach and what to do when an objective has been achieved ie set defensive positions etc need to be given. I am not sure why you would want to do WW2 airsoft if you don't want to enter into that part of it. Each section should be collecting and passing information on to HQ so that the whole side should benefit. Radios or runners or carrier pigeons the most important thing is information - playing on your own seems to me to be missing the point.